Marriage should only be between a man and a woman.

Total Voters: 1315 Yes 29% No 29% Undecided 29% BRITTANY 08/03/07 10:45pm NEW POLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 Barney and Betty 08/03/07 12:57pm Bam Bam your soooo right, this is all a bunch of crap........ Bam Bam 08/03/07 5:54am Well this poll has gone straight down the toilet. Craven 08/02/07 8:52pm "An it harm none, do what ye will." RAY-RAY 08/02/07 4:18pm A MAN SHOULDN'T **** ANTHER MAN BUT ITS OK FOR A WOMEN TO EAT A ANTHER WOMEN BUT THAT MARRIAGE **** NOT WORTH IT BECAUSE A MAN CAN'T SATISFIES ANTHER MAN CAUSE TWO ****S SLAPPING DON'T WORK. Bam Bam 08/02/07 3:42pm Ooops...I meant Laws should acomodate same sex unions Churches don't have to. Bam Bam 08/02/07 3:39pm Love is love we have made this point. But, why should the churches change and not simply the laws? It's the laws that need changing. Laws should accomodate same sex unions Churches have to; to ask every religion to change to accomodate this request I feel is wrong. We're not saying you can't come to our churches and worship, but, you simply cannot be married in them because it's against what we believe. Yes, you deserve the same rights as everyone under the Law, the Churches don't have to extend those same rights, because as someone stated it's freedom to beleive what we believe and we don't have to accomodate this. As someone outlined earlier the Church and State is separate; we must separate the needs and whys on this topic. Not to mention the State has no jurisdiction over changing who a Church will marry. Why should any Church have to change their beliefs to accomodate the few? I suggest you start with changing laws with local governments before you take on the Vatican among others. Fran 08/02/07 11:09am Allowing intrafamilial or incestuous marriages is not a logical (OR realistic) extension of allowing gay marriage. A marriage of two homosexual people who choose eachother starkly contrasts that of a marriage between people who have psychological problems enough to want to marry a family member- and I am not even touching on victimization. Now, aren't we past the point of saying there is something wrong psychologically with homosexuals? If not, we regress back to bigotry. Mia 08/02/07 11:01am I agree with ruben, We fall in love. If 2 people are going to spend the rest of there lives together that is a Marriage. weither or not there is a legal document or a church blessing, it is still a marriage. Laws should be made to protect us, but not be made by religions. If im not mistaken people fled to America to escape that which they now DO. Very hypocritical. Acceptance of truth should matter more then social status of churchs. There is nothing criminal about life long loving partnership, and 2 people will be together even if the church or court chooses to discrimante against them because they are the same gender. So why treat them as social outcasts and in some cases even criminals. Love is not Lust, be fair! Me 08/02/07 10:15am Ruben is right, we should get rid of all laws since people should be able to do what ever they wish. Government should stay out our lives and stop dictating what we can and can't do. I should be able to walk around naked, or I should be able to piss in public like the rest of the animals. Why should anyone else care. Same goes with marriage, I should be able to marry my brother or sister, my pet, or multiple partners without the Government stopping me. We should be able to alter the meanings of words like marriage as the times change. Ruben 08/02/07 7:53am None of us have the right to say "what is right" and "what isn't". Gender has nothing to do with who you fall in love with. Serenity 08/02/07 5:29am Who has the right to determine what marriage should be? Not me. Not anyone. We cannot allow the government to continue its stupid parenting laws. Adults should be able to do what they want, as long as it does not impinge or cause harm to others. Gay marriage does not cause any harm to anyone. Bam Bam 08/02/07 4:32am Hey Betty I don't need tarot cards to see. If your a Pagan though, why do you care if you have a "marriage" or a legal union if a legal union would provide the same material benefits? Barney and Bettey 08/02/07 3:51am Hey Bam-Bam, I think it's time for you to have a real tarot reading by a real pagan! Blessed Be!! Senchas_mor 08/01/07 7:23pm At the risk of being berated....a marriage is a union of elements...ie marriage of minds or men and women or marriage of resources. A unification of things that have been combined..personal choice dictates our unified experiences or our marriages in life...not religion, not prejudice, not public opinion, not legislation, simply personal choice...what is right for one may not be for another...practice tolerance not disparagement of each others differences..it makes our world a rich place... Craven 08/01/07 1:07pm Regardless, any change throughout history has come in its due time, no sooner, no later. This subject is no different from that of Multi-cultural rights, Female rights, childrens rights, animals rights, the list goes on. People will realize that Gay people should have the same right as any Christian would, and vise-versa. When it comes to a person's free-will, a persons right of expression, a persons right to rise above a mere word, the majority of the world will slowly but surely show compassion, no matter what a book says. It is not up to the religious to define the world. It is up to the world to decide how the world is defined. If the Religious should take their rightul place in this definition of a 'Free World', they too, would see that an argument over a petty word, a word that, although it has great meaning, should not be the definition and requirement of a successful relationship of love, is rather childish in a grown-up world. Besides, who has any right to 'Own' a word? it is spoken and written piece of communication, and cannot be truthfully owned by anybody. Have people really grown so desperate to own everything that they would fight over a word? It seems as if common-sense isn't so common after all. Fran 08/01/07 11:40am I feel that my argument is being unfairly simplified, so I will clarify it. If you think that marriage is between a man and a woman because "God says it is", and you are, essentially, waiting for God to approve it for homosexuals, then you are putting the responsibility in God's hands to change it. And what happens if we change it before this potential decision comes through (if ever)? Do you not fear for our society if we go through with this change "prematurely"? Or at least, fear for those who happily abide the changes OR expect them to fear for their souls? If you claim no to all of these, then why should gays not be allowed to marry? And if you claim yes, I would say that is wrong thinking. Humans make changes in this world- our creator does not. We are given free will, obviously. We create our reality, we are responsible for it, for every death, war, act of love or whatever and we always have been. I can tell you, though, if you are waiting for the word of God on this matter, listen not just to the religious but to everyone who cares about people enough to get involved in this. We all know God, too, and we are also promoting His (or Her) agenda. And yes, this IS a radical view of Christianity, and I am proud of it. Jesus was a radical, afterall. Bam Bam 08/01/07 10:01am No, I wholly disagree with you. There is no fear to overcome, same sex unions do not belong in the Church and that's it. Again you presume too much about where certain beliefs on this topic stem from. I guess it's easier to make excuses and say it fear based than to believe we have a moral basis for our opinions. You stated very clearly and I quote "people who have been raised their entire lives to fear God and punishment and eternal damnation, it becomes part of their framework, or mindset, to also fear changes that they have been told are "wrong" in God's eyes. I think this is at the root of this debate." It's really a radical view on Christian based beliefs. I don't beleive anyone in here has an opinion based on fear. If I'm wrong on that note people speak up now. Who in here thinks same sex unions should not be allowed in Church because your afraid of God? Fran 08/01/07 9:24am No, Bam Bam, I do not think that anyone is forced to believe anything. We each choose to believe that which we believe. I understand that a large part of your beliefs come from a love for God, but you also acknowledge having a fear of God. Fear is a natural driving force for human beings, but it can be overcome. I think that the choice of whether or not to fear God (whether one believes in God or not) is the dividing point in this matter, if you think about it enough, even for people who are talking about legal issues right now. Bam Bam 08/01/07 9:05am Fran, deep seated beliefs don't necessarily reflect fear of God. Not all religious people uphold their beliefs simply because of a fear of God, it is also because of a love of God and the way of life he wants for us that we uphold his teachings. I think the way your comment is written could be interpreted a bit narrowly. You make it sound as though we are forced to believe the way we believe for fear of eternal damnation. I think the the bulk of the religious masses would beg to differ with you on the basis of Eternal Life not the latter. It is good to have a healthy fear of God, but I think Love of Him out weighs any fear. Puzzle 08/01/07 9:04am Freedom of religion does mean that a religious group can determine what marriages, etc. it will perform and/or accept as valid, however freedom of religion also means that the government should not determine who marries whom. in the eyes of the law, marriage is a contract and more about distribution of property and assets and children. as i have often been told ... you can't legislate morality... and we all have an innate sense of what is right for us. marriage should be between two people, and not a decision for courts and politicians to decide. Fran 08/01/07 7:21am Jacks, I must say that I understand the feeling that policy decisions made by our government (and others) all favor money and profit in the end. But though I think that is true much of the time, I also believe that this gay marriage topic is about religion. Why? Because religion addresses our most fundamental beliefs, at least for those of us who are religious. When people have been raised their entire lives to fear God and punishment and eternal damnation, it becomes part of their framework, or mindset, to also fear changes that they have been told are "wrong" in God's eyes. I think this is at the root of this debate- deep seated beliefs. That being said, the God that I know doesn't judge me or anyone- especially when we are simply loving another human being- here or in the afterlife! Bam Bam 08/01/07 7:01am Towanda What? Christians can't be psychic and visit these sites too? Seriously though..Did you see the Ad on the right side of this page. I never noticed that before! It's an Ad for a women's devotional Bible! Don't kow if it's Chrisitan one though. Jacks I still pay the same in taxes as I did when I was single. I am still waiting for those federal discounts. Jacks 07/31/07 10:24pm It seems to me the real reason besides religion that gay marriage is illegal in most of the USA is economics. The more single people the government can tax the better in their eyes. If same sex couples were allowed to be married, the less revenue the federal government would have in its back pocket. People often overlook the financial ramifications and make it about religion to invoke emotional responses out of us therefore, our logic and pocket books are neglected. Spiritual or economic? Pentacles or Cups? Jeffery 07/31/07 10:06pm Yes, even though I'm surrounded with gay people even being friends with some of them, I being a heterosexual still strongly believe that marriage should only be between a man and a woman! Even if I was a homosexual or became one in the future my beliefs in the marriage arrangement still stands. When God created Adam & Eve He told them to reproduce, become many and fill the earth. So, when same sex marriages does become legalized, probably, throughout the whole world it will still be against one of God's purposes for humankind. Tawanda 07/31/07 6:03pm Ever notice that christians come to pagan sites to convert people to their way of thinking but pagans typically do not come to christian sites to convert people the other way? Dutchy 07/31/07 11:31am Thank you Fran... I know you are probably right that things always happen with a couple of people still not agreeing.. and a bit more realistic than I am sounding.. ;) But I really want to keep on believing that we can always come to a solution if we communicate and listen to eachother... I so certainly hope so. I have a deep love for the human race.. especially because we are faulty and so called sinners .. the more it speaks for our evolution if we can reach more common ground together... but yeah.. deep down I know that it is perhaps a bit too idealistic. But love can do it. I have repeatedly experianced this in my life.. with the occasional dissapointment when people indeed really did not want to make peace... but at least they tolerated some things because I made it my point not to let myself be dragged into the fighting... on the other hand... maybe I would have won more ground in that case fighting for my beliefs and standing up for my causes, which is peace and love.. maybe some day.. I have to be less of a wuss sometimes, lol But still then it would be most important to me to keep things peaceful. I guess you are very kind to accept my role.. and I better embrace what I am good at. again, thanks, I am learning alot here Fran 07/31/07 6:56am Dutchy- Change is a process, and through that process we will not get everyone to agree before the change is made (historically, this has been the case, i.e., with emancipation of slaves, womens' right to vote, etc.). So a certain amount of resentment will remain among some people, but I think that is part of societal transformation. As we all know, just because the majority holds an opinion doesn't mean it's right. And though I disagree with your ideology somewhat, I can see beauty in and a need for your peace-keeping role! Bam Bam 07/31/07 6:53am Fran, we say same sex couples should have the right to have a union outside of the Church because it is something as humans we can change, the santitiy of marriage is from God and because we are not God we cannot change this. God does love everyone, but, he doesn't want us to live that way. As a people here on this Earth I beleive we can change things to allow unions so folks like Bea can be legally recognized and have the same material security as "married couples". But, spiritually that is whole other side of this that we cannot change and it is between people and God. I say let us change what we can change and move forward from there. What is that prayer? Lord let me have the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference? William 07/31/07 5:29am How right you are Salsa, I used to be christan but found the right path for my pagan self. It is all about love and nothing more. Any God or Goddess not preaching this is not someone I would pray to. Wouldn't that be on the dark side? Better to stay in the light side, what go's around comes around. Zera 07/31/07 3:35am Well SAID Salsa. Its not at all about christianity or religions. Its about bigotry. Nothing more nothing less. Bigotry in its worst form ever!!!! Zera Salsa 07/31/07 2:32am Its crazy how you think everything is related to Christianity...There are other religions too...and The bilble is not the only holy book...i am a non Christian...and i am sick of you all preaching Christianity..every chance dat you get....for ****s sake dis is not the rite place...And guess wat...I am GAY...and proud of it...and i know my God loves me...and if your God cant...den he isnt God after all...think about dat... Ms lady 07/30/07 5:53pm You all have to much time on your hands .. legally and morally marriage is between a man and a woman .. for those of you who are into same sex anything .. what ever floats your boat .. BUT !!! keep it between yourselves and keep children out of it !!! and no you dont have the right to shove it down anyones throat ... and if you were really , truly happy with your same sex thing then you could walk with you head held high ... feeling comefortable and wouldnt feel the need to have anything justified by anyone Dutchy 07/30/07 3:23pm To me the highest honor of a union, and the most sacred moment would be.. that if one of the lovers is lying on their deathbed .. hopefully grown old with the other.. the one still sitting up would say in all sincerity to their beloved "my dearest one, it is so sad for me that you have to leave so soon.. but I am so grateful that we had the chance to share our lives together.. and I still love you so very very much... thank you for being my friend and lover always, thank you for everything, the good and the bad, we always got through... I will never stop loving you" sealed with a tender kiss on the mouth... and they both would smile at eachother with tears in their eyes .. That to me would be the sacredest thing of all... and god in my eyes would be smiling at a moment like that with a tear in his/her divine eye... no matter who is saying it to whom... Therefor.. I cannot really feel passion for the marriagething.. because true love is separate from that.. to me marriage is not the most honorable thing since it has been desecrated often enough to make it just a farce in my eyes.. ...or am I just a disenchanted cynic.. I think love is precious and sacred enough in itself.. and if not for the legal&equal rights issues.. I would not care about wedlock at all.. but I know that there are people that do care.. and I hope that one day they can live their dream.. I can understand on one hand the urgency Fran feels.. but when the mayority of the world just doesnt yet agree, I guess, then they just do not agree and there just has to be found another way to still be happy and celebrate love and have equal legal rights... cause the other way.. to get it *now* would be to just kill off everyone who thinks differently ...like ehm people often enough solved things when important opinions differed from eachother.. but thats not a solution at all... I know we all agree on that one right? ;) I don't think you can explain faith.. either one believes it.. or not.. sometimes ****ty for the other religions or non-believers.. but we just gotta deal with this.. we are all world citizens.. and majority still rules... its just the way it is... accept it and move on.. but theres always common ground to be found .. and I think it helps to listen to eachother... that whats changes things.. if someone screams at me I go lalala I cant hear ya... if someone talks to me.. in a sincere way, and explains their point of view.. I listen.. and often learn.. if only to understand them better so I can find a way that makes everyone more satisfied. I think that is the main problem with politicians.. they only cling to their own agendas and listen only to their partymembers and moneytrees... instead of trying to make it all better for the whole of the country. So its all yay or nay.. and never hey!.. maybe we *can* find a way... it's only about being rigid cause they might otherwise lose their (de)votees and chique lifestyles. So what happens is pulling the rope back and forth with every new term a swing to the other side.. how can one build a country on that.. one government builds and the other breaks down again... oooops... I am getting wayyyyyy off topic here... I guess what I mean is that beyond the difference of opinion there is fertile ground to be found.. We might never truly understand eachother... but we have ears to listen and a brain to think of solutions one might have not seen before .. together even. Just one little thing.. there are ofcourse always those that cannot be spoken with, unreasonable people that are indeed to stupid (sorry, nothing to do with religion, race or whatever.. just plain stupid, they cant help it either), too fanatic, embittered or just deaf to anything except their own opinion... less you all think I am just some dreamer who thinks you can always solve things with talking nicely.. but those people are mostly not the people who are going to make the difference.. Those people will follow their intelligent ambassadors like Fran or BamBam... so its good to see that you guys are again on speaking terms.. :) Thank you both for getting back into the saddle, and face eachother again after the dust has settled, shows character. Maybe stupid, and I prolly shouldnt say it because it sounds way too sentimental for my taste even, lol, but... it gives me hope for this whole crazy world we live in. :) Barney and Betty 07/30/07 1:53pm Social Security, ring a bell to anyone??? Married couples have it! Gay couples do not!! This married word means a lot to a lot of people, have I not this right?? How many people will just give a yes or no answer..... Lets see how you really feel... Chanta 07/30/07 12:39pm Well, this is how I see it. No matter what opinions the world has, GOD has given all of us free will. Now with that free will are you going to do what GOD wants or what you want?? Does GOD approve of same sex marriages? In the end we have to answer to one being, one force, one higher power... Our entire way of life to me is an oxymoron. Yes a huge contradiction. You can't control all desires of the heart and every rule doesn't neccesarily fit every situation... Holla @ me on that!! Fran 07/30/07 9:38am Like I have said before, I have difficulty accepting any concept or person that holds certain groups of people inferior to other groups (be it homosexuals, women, or whatever, really!, but the former are most applicable to this discussion). For me, this discussion is about finding truth. Though I seem to get angry a lot here, it really is just representative of passion (like Dutchy said)- I want freedom and equality for everyone, and I feel a great sense of urgency for that. Thus, when I see people say, on the one hand, that they support homosexuals' right to be a couple but that marriage- a sacred thing- is only between a man and a woman, I see it being clearly translated as such: "the highest honor that can be bestowed on a union of two people, that being marriage, is only available to heterosexual couples. Gay couples, while they have the right to live their lives the way they choose, do not have the right to the honor of marriage." That, to me, is not right, especially if there is an implication that God loves conditionally and only grants a certain type of people that kind of sanctity. But do I misunderstand the other side? Bam Bam 07/30/07 9:22am Dutchy, well said. I'm quite sure the Church has many avenues of making money, offerings are one of them. It doesn't make the Bible less believable in my eyes nor does it diminish my opinion on this topic. The Bible has been around for thousands of years you'd have a harder time proving it's wrong or that it was useless as someone stated earlier. Fran you and I must agree to disagree, we're obviously very passionate about our feelings on the subject. Let's leave it at that. Critter 07/30/07 8:36am From what I can tell fran, you have berated everyone on this panel who has not agreed with your statements. I for one think "marriage" is between a man and a woman. Nothing wrong with civil unions-share your love.... but until the terminology is changed we will not settle this arguement Fran 07/30/07 7:34am I feel the need to clarify something- Bam Bam, I am tired of you acting like everyone but you is spewing insults on this message board. Need I remind you that one of your first comments to me was "blow it out your ass" after I responded to someone else (how about THAT for an insult)? You hardly made me feel comfortable as a "fellow member". The bottom line is that if you want to come at me like that, you can expect the comments and the sarcasm to keep on coming. And do not berate me unless you want me to do the same to you! Just remember, as much as you want to defend your dignity, I will mine. Dutchy 07/30/07 7:07am I am not missing that point B&B :) I just want to point out the importance to focus on peace, not war.. there's a better way to reach equal rights and that's from a point of mutual understanding I think.. my point is also that its not worth fighting over words.. but since some have made it their point that the word marriage should only be used for a 'holy union' between male and female.. I am just saying hey, you've got my blessing.. kind of.. I just want the civil equal rights for other unions.. but I still feel words *are* important, so I think civil union should get a new name.. something new and meaningful to make a point, a mark in history, a re-establishment of the need for humans with deep love for eachother to be recognized and respected as a loving unit by state and fellow human beings... and for all sexes (with equal legal rights). For some people the meaning of marriage is included in the word, so I think, well lets work around that word then and give marriage to the church.. and keep state and religion separated. I also think the majority of people here did not miss the point of the equal rights issue, yes, most certainly not. Barney and Bettty 07/30/07 6:21am I think everyone is missing the main point, marriage comes with certain rights for each other. Gay people do not get them, this is what the whole thing is about. I don't care about the word they use, we just want the same rights!!! I'm not fighting for a word, I'm fighting for the SAME RIGHTS!!! Dutchy 07/30/07 3:56am I said no Peg, because I have nothing against marriage for all... Marriage should only be between a man and a woman was the statement right? So I said no. . . I don't think it should only be for the straights. But after thinking it all over for a while.. I read all opinions and stuff... I do think that we might do better if we just changed civil marriage, and make that available to all (church and state arent one anymore for a really long time now) .. and let churches decide on their own if they want to bless such unions or not. I know that there are different kinds of churches, some are very liberal others very conservative. Some people believe the Bible to the word others just live by the red thread in it of spirituality and the acknowledgement of the Divine and the ten commandmends.. its all okay.. I just can't push a thing through anyones throath and ask people to compromise on their own consiounce of whats right and whats wrong. The fairest would be a public vote on wich all people can participate.. and you know what... the world is just not there yet. I bet that marriage wouldnt be made possible for the queer. And well thats a shame for the ones its important to... So I say small steps... get what you can get... and keep on being an advocate on what you believe in .. whatever it is.. Honestly... reality is just what it is... the world is changing, slowly.. (and actually not thát slow anymore) so we can make the best of choices and not waste our time being only pigheaded and seeing only our own point of view. See the positive... there are like only one or two people inhere that really are homophobic and calling them ill and stuff... there are only a couple of people that said woman is made for man... but they never said that that means that women should be slaves to men.. for the most part, the ones opposed are quite liberal in their christianity, they are pretty accepting and let God judge the rest... I come from a very strict religious background.. I have heard much worse than I read here.. and have been brought up christian myself... I do understand where they are coming from. That I lost my faith does not mean I lost my understanding. It just gives me a milder outlook .. Its not fair calling christians ignorant or stupid, it had nothing do do with IQ. My own sister is highly intelligent, but still she is a (liberal) christian and I love her very much and I would never tell her to stuff her beliefs because they are outdated. They give her comfort and clear guidelines to live by. It is all ok. I think she would be on the level with BamBam on this one (although she would not get into any fights I think).. and I get why. Times will change people.. be patient and loving in the meantime. oh yes.. and really, do we NEED marriage.. don't be angry because people are not able to condone marriage between same sex.. maybe we should try to understand that and equalize only the civil marriages.. maybe that would mean adapting the regular civil marriages as well (perhaps modernize them even somewhat more). I guess churches or any religious house/community can always decide on a way to bless same sex unions or not. I wonder about pagan marriages though... isnt it also ritualistic impossible to wed a male and male or two females.. I mean the cauldron and the cauldron and the athamé and athamé... I think in some circles that also would be considered blasfemous. SO what we have here I guess.. is some kind of problem or comfusion with the meaning of marriage.. is it the unity of sexual life bringing (procreational) forces... or is it a ritual for the commitment between two people who want to be mates for life.. I think maybe we should take a close look and perhaps reïnvent some of our rituals in society and give them whatver names one wants..as long as they emotionally carry the meaning of what it is as well... And in 100 years it will be considered normal.. or outdated again, lol Bea 07/29/07 11:26pm Bam Bam, I wish u´d got to UR church and ask who REALLY pays for it, bc the small OFFERINGS in the collectorsbox cannot keep the curch as it is. Prove me wrong, I DARE ya!!!!!!!!!!!!! bea Peggy 07/29/07 10:53pm I don't understand how spiritual people could possibly say no. if you said no~ bless you for you need to be. good luck on achieving your enlightenment. Bam Bam 07/29/07 4:33pm Bea I didn't say YOUR as in mine churches; I said OUR Churches as in most of them. Also, I only mentioned one city that burned although there were two. Thank you for reinforcing my position on that. He burned two cities. Also, I clearly stated these were STORIES not that they actually happened, but, one has faith that they did occur. The Bible is filled with stories we are meant to learn from FAITH is beleiving in them. Not one person has given any real reasons why the Bible should change or why same sex relationships should be permitted in Church. I'm still waiting for an answer from someone to my original question. If you disagree with the Bible why do you care if you get married in the Church. And Bea we all pay for Churches we attend they are called offerings. Mrs.Hall 07/29/07 4:24pm Well william if you must know who he is in the bible it says god created man in his image woman from the man rib ok Zera 07/29/07 12:09pm How do u know they happened Bam Bam? Bc the bible said so?? Back it up with hard evidence Bam Bam. Also those of u who dont believe in the bible, are we heathens in those who do believe in th bible´s eyes?? Again, why not juss let people choose 4 emselves huh? u dont like it if any told u how to live ur life, how to think act n behave, nor do u like if all ur choise was taken from ya. Not to mentio u were censored in everything. It was not many years ago when parents chose 4 their children, n they had no say at all. Is THIS what u wanna go back to? I can only shake my head n say, hundreds of years of evolution n society has come down to this ..... looks mighty bleak for society in future then. my my !!!! my my !!!!!! zera Bea 07/29/07 11:47am Oh dear dear ,do PARDON a grammar failure Bam Bam, but is God not OMNIPRESENT??? And what dp you men by YOUR churches??? WHo finances in the end these churches??? bea Bam Bam 07/29/07 9:05am Excuse me, two cities then. Bea if you wish to tell me to get it right perhaps you should do the same it's Sodom and Gomorrah. And I will stand for what I believe and defend it; just as everyone else in here is doing. Marriages and life are based on beliefs everyone is entitled to theirs. I would still like an answer from someone though. If so many don't care for the Bible or as some have pointed out its outdated and useless teachings then why do you care if you get married in our Churches? Go live live the way you want just as you have been doing. Just leave the Church out of it. Zera 07/29/07 8:00am HEAR HEAR 4 THAT STEVIE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stevie 07/29/07 7:19am Well, my view on the issue (which is not really an issue), is that I always thought happiness between two people is really all that matters. It does not matter to me who gets married, if two people are comfortable and want to be together, what is the big deal? Bea 07/29/07 6:56am One city??? As far as I recall was it 2, Sodoma and Gomorra. If you abselutely MUST use the Bibles WRATHS then use it right. I at least pointed to areas where the Holy Bible was used by greedy people in the name of God n the good in life. In fact many groups use the Holy book for it just as we sit here and debate wether or not marriage should be only between men and women. At that I say are all this petty thoughts compared. Bea Bam Bam 07/29/07 6:49am Barney and Betty, like I said we are all sinners, but, God loves a sinner. Bea, no one is discriminating here. The Bible is a history book not simply an Instruction manual for those who choose to live by it. Those who don't choose to live by it why would you care if you can or can't get married in a Holy Church. It's a fact that same sex unions at this time cannot take place in the HOLY Church. I believe same relationships should be allowed legal unions. Just not in the Church that is highly blasphemous and religiously offensive. We all have our crosses to bear in life. which my faith brought me through. Although God may not approve of same sex relationships he does forgive, I know because I have seen his blessings. Explain how Love they neighbor and thou shalt not steal or thou shalt not kill (among others) were written so long ago we should not live by these very teachings? How is this not useable? Or is someone else in here picking and choosing parts of the Bible they wish to spout? The Bible teaches us to find hope, courage and faith in it's stories, it was translated from a very difficult language thousands of years ago and yes it does change throughout history as we learn more about it. but, it hasn't changed because of histoy. Present civilization has also changed, many people like myself are all for gay legal unions. Yet, others insist on changing the Bible simply because it doesn't fit into their sense of what the world should be; like adjusting the Bible simply because we cannot prove what it say's is true. If God gave all the answers that would leave no room for faith and faith breeds hope. So yes let those of us who looooove God and Jesus' teachings WILL keep him and those who don't We'll pray for you. I mean that sincerely and not spitefully. One final thought, there was once a city that didn't think the Bible or God was useable and they did whatever they wanted, that city was burned to the ground and all the people in it. Now that is just a story of course, but, I think it's the answer to that latter comment. I may have to change my name to Holy Roller now. LOL. Bea 07/29/07 1:57am Is is not funny, how those who live by the Holy Bible, and who speak and go by the Holy Bible, kind of discriminate those that do not? It is as if, they are the only ones allowed to have a mind on this topic alltogether, and the rest is treated like heathens? Like outcasts of our societies? Is it not also funny, that these same people, and again bless them, in fact are the once that calls, those who have developed and moved on as socities changed and changes, for various names, that they are the one who actually are throwing the first rock? Is it not also funny, that the same, and bless them, has not developed since the Holy Bible was first written? Bless them who believes th Holy Bible, because without them, this debate would not flourish like it does, no? Now to my say in this. It´s not the Holy Bible, or any human to judge any other for their choises in life, because they will see their judgement in heaven or in hell. And this goes for us all. Further, if any knows about anatomy and physiology, you would know, woman came not from a man´s rib. Is it not so, that for many many years man thought the earth was square shaped? And someone wise found out it was round? He too was discriminated for believing in something else than what the whole thought. His finding proved correct. About the Holy Book, if you live, learn, and go by it, how can you explain all the horrors of history in its name? Is it REALLY the meaning of the Holy Bible, that ALL of Gods creatures should suffer as they have all across world history? Inka indians by hands of Conquistadores from the old land? America´s own native in habitants? Australia´s aboriginies also? What about the ancient countries and inhabitants that suffered under the Greek, Charthagoians, Romans, Attila the hun, English knights in the Holy war etc. IF u must speak the Holy Bible, you must also take the bad along the good. Bless you all. Bea Zera 07/29/07 1:34am 1st off HEAR HEAR CRAVEN 2nd Bam Bam U obviously cannot read properly, bc if ya could u´d KNOW that we didn´t ´namecall ANYONE. Have ANY of u ANY idea of how MANY times the bible has been rewritten, edited n changed ever since it´s 1st draft??? It´s change follows world history. So if u know a wee bit of world history on ancient empires you´d know, the bible as it stands today, aint the one made 1st time around. Food 4 thought no? Funny when ya think of it. It didn´t come out b4 Gutenberg invented the press in the 1400..................... makes u think how people got by WITHOUT it up till then. It´s original langauge HEBREW????? HOW DO U KNOW???? 4 sure that is? Then u would also claim that the interpretation of Roman Latin and Ancient Egytian is as scientists says it is??? 1 last thing though, if the bible said, jump off the cliff, would u ? Zera PS : How about let those who LOOOVVEEEE the bible so much to keep it, n let us the rest who don´t think it´s USEABLE anymore Craven 07/28/07 4:36pm I have not once attacked another person on this topic. In fact, not once have I attacked anyone on any thread, in any topic, on any site. And yet, there are many people who take offense to anothers opinion. I am stating reasons, and countering others opinions, just as they are countering mine; this is the very nature of a debate of anykind. When someone trumps anothers opinion in a debate, an adult does not resort to name calling, or verbal abuse of anykind. If you are not prepared to defend your opinion, then do not post it. Terrence 07/28/07 4:02pm I think marriage should be consider for anyone wants to be with theperson either it be male to male or female to female. what ever you think is right for you Barney and Betty 07/28/07 3:55pm I thought this was a pagan site for readings, I didn't think Christian folks and bible folks would be in here. Bam Bam 07/28/07 3:39pm Bit of Sarcasm here..Why is it when people disagree with what Gay folks and Gay activists want we are GAY-PHOBIC? ZERA!! Oh wait my favorite was Fran's comment HOMO-EROTIC. If you can't get folks to believe in your cause you name call. That will surely win the day. NOT!! Talk about your ignorant, unenlightened opinions. More Sarcasm here..Oh yes, and let's change the Bible and the Ten Commandments too while we're at it simply because they do not fit into your sense of life. The Bible although changed at times Old Testament and New Testament has virtually stayed the same with the King James version being most recently accepted. William 07/28/07 3:26pm Mrs. Hall, Who is he? How about she????????? or she-male?????? Abel 07/28/07 3:07pm Hey Craven- U surely R. It is still very acceptable to sting u up by your lymph nodes U gonad. Ms. Garrison 07/28/07 2:30pm Marriage is serious and should only be between a man and woman. Gay people can say what ever they want or do what ever they like but the truth is that God created men and women to be together in matrimony. Mrs. Hall 07/28/07 1:19pm Yes it was written An woman was made for man.From that mans RIB! Not man made for man or woman made for woman!God neVER said that part! Now I think people can love who the want i hav no prob. with that.An yes the "WORLD" is changing not the "BIBLE"but dont get it twisted..........WHAT IS WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE NEVER CHANGES.AN I DONT THINK.......NO I KNOW HE IS'NT GONNA REWORD AN NEW BIBLE FOR GAYS TO BE MARRIED.SO PEOPLE CAN CHANGE BUT WHAT GOD SAYS THE SAME I CANT JUDGE YOU BUT HE WILL! Craven 07/28/07 10:57am I agree with Sunny Girls post, in regards to Law and Order. Back when the Bible was written, people generally needed a person or thing to direct them to peacful, and prospersous times. Do we live in an age such as this now? of course not, or else we would not be having this debate, or ANY debate for that matter. We live in an age where people CAN think for themselves, for the most part anyway. We live in a time where things NEED to be changed, or we will all surly perish. the first step; accepting ALL as equal, regardless of what some black book says. Remember, when this book was written, it was still socially acceptable to stick a person in the gallows, it was acceptable to stone people, to throw food at people, to behead people, the list goes on. These things have changed, albeit with much public outcry. But this is how all change must occur. And it has brought us to better times... maybe not the best it could be, but still a farcry from Medeival Brutality and prejudice. There are always going to be people who wish to hold on to the past, fearful of letting go, because they do not know where this path will take them. It is time people actually decided to attempt to change the world for the better, instead of complaining about it and doing nothing. Jeffrey 07/28/07 10:08am Only wish more people would stop all the hate and discontent and live their lives in peace. I believe if a man or woman CHOOSES to be gay so be it, do not force their belief on someone else and vise-versa, Marriage should be for legitimate birth right (look on your birth certificate) to a family name and all benefits or shame if you chose, if anyone wishes to co-habitate then they have the right, just don't force it on someone else. Zera 07/28/07 3:37am Kinda makes u ask IF those who has SO much against women marrying women, n men marrying men, have a serious condition called GAYPHOBIA!!! I think they do on some level. Maybe they r scared they themselves has it in them to b gay. Lets face it, there r some out there who CHOOSE to B gay bc of many reasons, mostly being that the opposite gender of their own, abused them in any way possible. So I say to those who opposed gay unions, why not juss admit u are gayphobic instead of discriminating them??? Zera Joshua 07/28/07 3:02am Marriage in the stictest sense is unnecessary. It is a societal construct primarily used today as a means of issuing libel to one another. I feel love does not need a parchment with unclean words printed upon it to determine love. The ceremony itself of marriage, can be enjoyable and rewarding spiritually. I do not feel this enriching spiritual ceremony should be restricted from homosexuals. Homosexuals do a great service to the human race in that they adopt a great deal of children, and help eliminate (if it even exists) the homosexual gene. They cannot locate a gene that determines sexuality in the human genome..so do not misquote me as saying "I hope homos kill themselves off." Quite the contrary homosexualality may a natural defense mechanism built into all animals to prevent over crowding. For this I am grateful for all homosexuals, because it indirectly gives my child a space to exist potentially. I am not sure why people dislike homosexuals, or do not wish to appreciate the good things they do for our environment. Most homosexuals I have met, are kind hearted people who do not enjoy watching pain and suffering come to straights, or gays. I think it is a terrible shame that such a terrible light has been cast upon them in modern times. Maybe times will change soon. Joelene 07/28/07 1:26am Marriage is a tradition and also a religious ceremony designed for man and wife. Next people will want to marry their pets. Due to religious basis of marriage don't understand why gays want to get married. Think gays deserve same legal rights as hetrosexuals except for marriage. If I were gay I would hav a weddind party to show commitment to that partner. Goldie 07/27/07 8:39pm Woowee! It sure is HOT in here. Either I am having a hot flash or this is the after life and I have gone straight (or even gayly) to Texas...! Jackie 07/27/07 7:12pm Love is not defined by color, creed, or gender. Wyllow 07/27/07 5:47pm Marriage is a simple concept. A union between 2 people who love each other. Fran 07/27/07 9:58am May I please redirect everyone's attention to Maggie's post? I have the utmost respect for people who consider themselves religious, but at the same time are clear-sighted and compassionate enough to read the bible in a progressive, inclusive way. The thing is, as many people have said, the famous Bible has been changed so many times by people in power for the purpose of controlling society. Reading the book rigidly does not make sense to me at all. The only way for it to survive in the future as an authority (and this goes for religion at large too) is for it to change again via open, loving interpretation so that it will be more inclusive for a more enlightened humanity. The change is inevtiable- it has already happened man times over- so why deny it any further? William 07/27/07 6:44am Sunny Girl, Your soooooo right! Thanks! Sunny girl 07/27/07 5:57am No one has the right to tell others how to live. A book that was written 3000 years ago, to keep people afraid of the wrath of "God" when there was no law and order, has no place in modern society. Hate, prejiduce and discrimination is what is wrong with our world today. More war, death, despair and grief has been caused by narow minded people and religion than any other reason. I say we live and let live and the world will be a much happier place. Zera 07/27/07 4:31am Have ANY of u ANY idea of how MANY times the bible has been rewritten, edited n changed ever since it´s 1st draft??? It´s change follows world history. So if u know a wee bit of world history on ancient empires you´d know, the bible s it stands today, aint the one made 1st time around. Food 4 thoughts no? zera BRITTANY 07/26/07 9:13pm GET EM "BAM BAM" YOU KNOW WHAT YOU TALKIN' ABOUT!!!!! I AIN'T NOTHING WRONG WITH A LITTLE BUMP AND GRIND!!!! FROM WHOM EVER MAN/MAN OR WOMAN/WOMAN!!!!!!! SO STAY ON THEIR ASS "BAM BAM" William 07/26/07 8:35pm What if you don't beleive in the bible, and practice the old ways, who care's about a book written by to many people for there use. Craven 07/26/07 7:23pm Do you commit a 'Sin' because you HAVE to? Or do you commit a 'Sin' because you CHOOSE to? You are right, though, no one is perfect. But The Ten commandments, in which everyone 'Tries' to follow, are not usually broken because a person is 'forced' to do so. They are broken because a person 'chooses' to do so. Why infringe on the right for Gays to beleive as they do, by forcing them to abide by a religious Text? Society is based around War. Does this make it right? Bam Bam 07/26/07 6:45pm Craven, we are all sinners. You cannot seriously make the argument that as Christians we have no right to protest gay marriage in a church based on that same premise he who is without sin. Forgiveness is God's job and a human choice. Those of us who "spout" the Bible as excuses, not so, these aren't excuses, we live by these teachings, society is based upon it. Why infringe upon our right to believe as we do by forcing us to change our Church to accomodate others? Craven 07/26/07 6:31pm This is clearly a Religious debate, and not one of human rights, as many continue to point out, in a rather angry way. Nobody is fighting Against a Gay Union? Only Gay Marriage? This is nothing more than a matter of Mass Hypocrasy, and discrimintation, no matter how one cuts it. Why would ANY person who was making ANY argument in regards to the Bible needing to be followed By 'everybody', take this stance, and at the same time, Break another 'Godly Credo'? You cannot choose which words to follow, and then put another down for the same thing. The ones against Gay 'Marriage', and backing up their argument with ANY form of religious text, must follow the ENTIRE Bible to the 'T', or should not expect anyone to take their argument seriously. Hipocrasy, Discrimination; these are but a few things attached to their actions. Maggie 07/26/07 5:17pm Okay, so I'm Catholic and I could go on and on about this topic but I'll try not to. I think the same rights and freedoms should be awarded to everyone. For those of you quoting the Bible and believe that same sexes shouldn't be together I say look up the part where God forgives everyone if they ask forgiveness. However, it is not my personal belief that being "gay" is wrong or needs forgiveness from anyone. I believe God made each and everyone of us perfect and the word marriage is basically just another word for the commitment two people make to love one another. I don't understand why people get so upset over this...right, wrong or indifferent...it's really no one elses business what anyone else does. A decision to be married is between God (or whichever life force you believe in) and the two people being married. Let them deal with it on their own. As the old saying goes.."let 'em get married they deserve to be just as miserable like the rest of us". LOL Bam Bam 07/26/07 3:34pm Craven, marriage is a Biblical union. Once and for all already clearly same sex relationships are banned in the Bible same sex partners cannot be Married; it is HOLY. Everyone should be allowed to get unionized or married. Gay or straight. You cannot change the Bible but you can change society and some of the rules surrounding legal unions. Everyone, let's quit with the lets change words around or redefine them, oh yes and let's prove the Bible is right or wrong. The only people who have a problem with the Bible and it's teachings are the people trying to get around it's rules. This Poll is old already. Go get unionized already and leave my Bible alone! William 07/26/07 3:48am The word marriage stinks, but with it comes a whole bunch of extras. I think civil union is a better word, but you don't get all of the extras that comes with it. I've paid into all of the goverment's wants, when it comes to my wants, guess what? I DON'T HAVE THEM. I would like to have all of my civil rights and words like marriage need to be changed. Bright Blessings to all!!! Connie 07/25/07 3:46pm Why would anyone want to get married anyway? marriage is the leading cause of divorce. Craven 07/25/07 9:58am The definition of Marriage may be a man and a woman, and this, as we can see, is a hotly debated peice of the topic. But there are two things that must be considered in this argument; First, Humans have changed words for as long as anyone can remember, to include new, or modified things in our constant and ever-changing world and vocabulary. Cultures change with the ages, people change with the ages, and yes, surprisingly enough, even words change with the ages. Secondly, is this really about the WORD used? Or is the prime argument in this matter about the ACT? These people are not trying to have their rights included in a word; they are trying to have their rights included in the ACT of Marriage. It is the ACT that poeople are fighting against. The word is only secondary to the prime argument. Ashley 07/25/07 9:27am If someone loves each other then they should be able to get married no one should be deline the right to get married Angleyes 07/25/07 8:07am When children are involved they must be included in the decision as well they are apart of the tie in the relationship for both parties. Their thoughts after all do count and some times our children can see out side of what we as parents don't see not to mention they some times have better judgement than we do. Being a parent myself I can testifiy to this they will be honest and as open as possible to you and we should listen to them,hear them out on their feelings. Should you close them out of making a committment this will push them further away from the both of you and they too have to live with it, they have a right to say whats on their mind although the last word and decision is yours yet consider what they are thinking. For some thing like this is a long term matter and is to the up-most important for them and the two of you a new member is being considered part of the family now don't leave any one who apart of it permenently, out of it. Bam Bam 07/25/07 8:02am Jeff I agree wholeheartedly. When trying to change meanings in words to encompass the whole of the masses that's when problems start. You cannot encompass everyone as a whole becuase we are all different just as we are all human. Marriage is created within the sanctity of God and this cannot be changed or done away with simply because of an inability to accept the definition of marriage. Marriage takes place before God as a witness let no man put asunder what God has brought together ring any bells? Okay so what you want doesn't fit within that definition, find a new word and way to describe what you want to accomplish. There's always a way around a road block and so many people willing to fight for you. Here's a thought: Instead of trying to change someones religion or peoples beliefs try a new approach to getting what you need you 'd have more people fighting for you than against you. I also agree about being Unionized. I almost mentioned that the other day but thought someone would take offense. But try to get legalized unions in your state and stop fighting with the churches and state over a word and it's meaning that simply cannot encompass your needs based on it's religious background. There is more at stake here than trying to change the world all at once. One thing at a time generally works when trying to change the world. Dutchy 07/25/07 4:53am We redefined lots of things... like the shape of the earth... but then again, the shape of the earth is not a human invention... though it was a hot topic once as well, you think.. could we be so bold to redefine our own inventions.. or will we loose our perceived safety then? I am getting so weary of this.. let the church keep its marriage and define it any way it will. We are free people, I am starting to wonder why we are fighting for words... words don't mean anything like Craven said if it were not for us to give meaning to them, we should all get over ourselves. Equal rights yes, because that means something. Maybe we should ban civil marriage completely, and 'unionize' all, same sex ma.. (whoops) or heterosexual unions (I hate that word already, people are not states). Jeff 07/25/07 2:15am I find it amusing that when referrencing the word "discrimination", you "urge people to look up the meaning in a Dictionary" while at the same time discouraging people to do the same with the word "marriage". You can't have it both ways Craven! Definitions of words are important because without them we have no common tools with which to communitcate. Again, by definition, the institution of "marriage" is a very specific type of union, that is between a man and a woman. Even you have acknowledged this fact. This is not discrimination because the institutuion of "marriage" applies equally to all races of people reglardess of religion, creed, or even sexual preference. A gay man can be in a "marriage" as long as it's with a woman. Now, if two people of the same sex wish to be "unionized", which is a word I propose we use to discribe a civil union between homosexual couples or even multiple partners, then there is certainly no basis for which to assert discrimination because all the same legal benifits of married couples also exist for unionized people. In this case the only difference is the actual use of the term "marriage". Anti "gay marriage" advocates are not necessarily "anti gay", but rather they are simply trying to preserve the meaning of the word marriage as it is currently defined. I think you will find that most anti "gay marriage" advocates would have no problem with gay couples being united in a civil union which carries with it all the same legal benifits as "marriage", as long as it's not called marriage. Comprende? Craven 07/24/07 11:11pm By changing the words meaning from 'Man and Woman', to 'Two Persons', which, a marriage implies on its own, We are not making things confusing. In fact, we are simplifying them to include a particular type of people. In regards to discrimination, I would urge people to look up the meaning in a Dictionary, as the meaning of a word seems to mean a great deal, this word describes the exact act of which people are doing. This was unnacceptable when discrimination againts blacks was prominent, it was unnacceptable to discriminate against women, and it still is, for both of these examples. Whats the difference between these examples, and that of Gay mariage? Mary jane 07/24/07 9:17pm Marrage between a nam and a woman is sacred yes, but anyone who is truly in love should be able to marry. anyone. Jeff 07/24/07 4:34pm Craven, I applaud your "attempt" to explain away the fact that marriage defined is a union between a "man and a woman" as "husband and wife". I'm afraid however that your logic is confusing and erroneous. Circe makes a good point. If you leave religion out of it, you still cannot apply the word marriage to two people of the same sex because it does not fit the fundamental meaning of the word. With respect to your comment on "discrimination", that does not fit either. Homosexual men and women are free to "marry" as long as they do so with someone of the opposite sex, so you see they are not discriminated against. I, like most people, am pro "civil unions" for gay couples so that they may enjoy the same kinds of benefits as married couples. If every single minority group or person decided to alter the meaning of words just to fit some agenda, words would lose meaning and communication would be adversely affected. For this reason I propose adding new terminology rather than changing basic definitions of existing terms. Let me be the first to propose the word "unionized" to be the new equivalent term which would be defined as "the civil union of two or more people". This should encompass gay couples as well as people who wish to be in a civil union with multiple partners. This way "marriage" remains unchanged and continues to adhere to it's definition, and partners who are "unionized" enjoy the same social and legal benefits, so it's a win win situation. Sound good? Craven 07/24/07 2:08am The 'Word' Marriage may be meant to signify man and woman, but it this is only so because humans 'Allow' it to be as such. An apple is only an apple in that it is a red, roughly shaped, crunchy-tasty thing. The word we attribute to it is only defined by what we 'Want' it to be defined by. In other words; Just because the 'Word' implies a man and a woman, does not mean that the 'act' should imply a Man and a woman. Why not have marriage INCLUDE these people? Or rather, why not have your vocabulary include these people? Descrimination is not held in high regards. Circe 07/23/07 4:22pm By definition, a marriage is between a female and male whether human or a nut and bolt. It is just a fact, I did not make it up. If same sex unions want to name their union something, fine, but marriage is the WRONG choice of words. Dutchy 07/23/07 2:02pm Fran I admire your passion, but I don't think its any use... not to fight anyways.. you can just say what you think, and I know alot of people do agree with you... and I am all behind your stance here... but in reality.. you can't fight religion.. people will not ever change their opinion because as B said it it's their faith.. , so what use is there.. they will only see you as they see you now... Maybe you think I am a wuss... I am just a tad tired and hoping that hundred monkey will come along and change it all.. I will always give my frank opinion, but I will almost never fight others.. yeah I am a bloody pacifist because well... it almost certainly never helps things to fight. You are trying to be quite calm I see in your posts, maybe you can tolerate 'ignorance' more if you can see that they too are trying to live the best way they can. Maybe not the best as you see it, but yeah... And Bam Bam, and others please try to see Fran behind her fierceness towards you and perhaps your religion. She wants a better place for all human beings.. she is speaking out of love and passion for her fellow man. And yeah you are her fellow man too... She would go all the way for you if you were gay you just happen to be straight ..or maybe not... I don't want to jump to conclusions here. If you think you are not heard, remember that she tries to put herself on the line for a whole group of people that have a really hard time being heard and taken seriously. And I am glad you are for the legal union at least. So ****, I meddled.. I just hope you can make peace... I know you want to right? ;) Otherwise, just fight me... though it won't do any good .. Shanae 07/23/07 1:16pm I am a lesbian and still do not feel as if though that we should be allowed to marry ive been with my partner for 5 years and we both share the same views thats what makes us homosexuals different from the rest of the world but as long as we know how we feel about each other we will hold a ceremony for our family next year and since were both employed at disney were already recognized as a couple i guess its just a view of moral values and ethics Bam Bam 07/23/07 12:20pm Fran: I don't have to prove what the Bible says is real. It's called FAITH. I'm also not going to keep addressing your points of view simply because you feel like fighting with someone. You clearly DON'T READ fully because my earlier comments state I'm all for legalized Unions. Get over yourself already. Fran 07/23/07 11:49am Bam Bam, you are making illogical fallacies left and right, which is what I am taking most offense to, to be specific. Yes, men and women procreate and homosexuals cannot have children together. But it does not necessarily follow that gay people should not be able to have a legally-recognized union with the same rights as straight people just because they can't procreate. What is a actually wrong with a relationship that does not produce offspring? Should infertile couples be denied their rights? And you seem to have missed my (and many others' points) about the Bible: you can't prove that what it says is the way we are "supposed" to live. And given the fact that it is so full of contradiction and subject to so much reformatting (by rulers like Constantine and King James, who had their own agenda, suprise!) throughout history, you also cannot prove that there is truth consistent with what you seem to believe about the relationship between men and women and LGBT people. Just because the bible says that God made woman for man does not mean that it is true. And yes, I will speak out against what I consider ignorant, unelightened opinions wherever I encounter them because I think that they are limiting to the freedom of individuals everywhere. Go ahead and call it what you want- make me look disrespectful- but the fact is that having a discussion with poignant language is okay. Most of us here have strong feelings. But using juvenile insults like yours and Sheri's is not only exasperating but useless in a dialogue about society. Opressed groups do better working together in the effort to overcome repressive norms, and that is why I relentlessly argue about these issues. I support the rights of LGBT people to have the same privileges in our "free" society that I do as a hetero individual. Bam Bam 07/23/07 10:42am Fran, you berated a fellow member for quoting something from the Bible. You chastised her because her beliefs are different than yours. Degradation (your word) doesn't seem to come only from men. I said your comment was out of place and never said your position on women’s rights was wrong. I also never said the Bible had to be anyone’s belief least of all yours. God did make women for man. If that is not the case please tell me oh great Fran how were we supposed to go forth and multiply. Remember no in-vitro back then. Obviously men and women are created for one another whether biologically or emotionally. Whether you choose to live that way is up to you free will and all. I don't care that men wrote the Bible, I'm just glad someone did. It's everyones choice to follow or not. Not all people are bad and not all men hurt women; that sounds like a personal issue you have. Yes my name is BAM BAM and Freudian should be capitalized. Mavis 07/23/07 10:34am God first created adam than eve, so it was his purpose for male and female to be joined as one. and how else would the world continue to be fruitful and multiply a woman and a man has to have sex in order to produce. male and male cannot produce nor can female and female. if everyone were gay there would be no newborns! Shaylee 07/23/07 7:45am Love is love!!!! Dutchy 07/23/07 6:07am Okay this is just my opinion: If marriage was treated the same way as medication, and all the side-effects and statistics of succesful marriages were included on a paper slip with the box of weddingrings (if it would fit at all...) Should anyone in their right mind be married at all? If not for the legal benefits, why do it? I voted no. But deep in my heart I don't believe in marriage, between whatever sex. Love should be freely expressed in full faith and confidence.. animals don't get married, though some of them stay committed to the same partner their whole lives. Marriage is in my opinion an invention of man. A ritual, a ceremony, born out of some need to make a tight commitment wich often enough ends up to be a prison, wich many people break out of sooner than later. But I don't want to keep others from enjoying this ritual. And yes, sometimes marriages are really wonderful... but don't you think it would have been just as beautiful without the whole wed-thing? I think giving the homosexual the right to marry is more about giving them recognition and acceptation and the same rights than it is about whooptheedoo they can marry.. And I am all for the same rights part. In my opinion marriage can be holy if you give it that meaning, but for me, it has become another fairytale I don't believe in. Yeah, I still believe in love, between all sexes, but it is rare to find. If you have found it, celebrate it everyday, and if you are married, remember it is not the marriage in itself that keeps you together.. Fran 07/22/07 5:39pm Wow Sheri, what can I say? The feeling is mutual- I feel bad that you cannot respect yourself as a human being or your gender as a whole. Of course, you can choose to live your life the way you please and make all of the simpleton insults you want. I am just pleased that there seem to be more people making sound arguments on this post- like Crispin, Don, Craven, and Jamie, for example- than there are people making pathetic, embarrassing arguments like yours. Sheri 07/22/07 9:56am Thanks Bam Bam. Fran I feel sorry for you. You have your head so far up your butt, that I'm afraid you might suffocate. Dutchy 07/22/07 4:10am Sometimes I think discussions about religion should be banned... no one ever 'wins' and we keep running in circles around eachother trying to get the next blow below the belt in. There would be alot more silence though maybe a tad bit boring. But it would be refreshing to hear comments beyond "God says.." or "the Bible says.." and "How can anyone in their right mind put their faith in an ancient book, also full of outdated ****" or whatever it is I heard a thousand times before... in every smarty pants single way... But as this is not a discussion about religion, I am now keeping my mouth shut... after just voicing one thing.. Religion is a very personal thing, yes strangely people do pick out of the bible what hey want to believe, and this is actually their right, but more importantly they also choose how they want to behave... and I don't think it speaks for the person if they choose to behave in a hostile disrespectful way... just as it does not speak well for non-religious persons to behave in that way. I am sorry if I now sound condescending, but please consider this a message out of tiredness of listening to and seeing people uselessly hurting eachother in wars, fights or with 'just words' Don 07/22/07 12:41am This goes out to the folks using God as an excuse: take a look at this site. Take a good look. It is influenced by the arts of divination and astrology, things that are a big no-no in the bible. Anything considered sorcery (and that could have broad implications) was a killing offense. So, if you believe that same-sex marriages are forbidden and evil, then you must also believe that this site is evil. Then, you should get off of this site. Before the little devils grab you. Crispin 07/22/07 12:26am So many of these ramblings are based on these ancient, outdated Judeo-Christian ethics born of times long gone. The archetypal relationship represents both the masculine and feminine in balance. The truest marriage is internal with these forces. Physical marriage and arguing over its current trends are irrelevant. If people want to marry, let them. People say, "Save the sanctity of marriage." Yell until your throats bleed. Marriage is on the downhill slope. Fewer and fewer consider marriage a positive option. Maybe, if people want to save the idea of marriage, they should let the queers marry. I'm tired of hearing all of these wedge-issue, drama-creating dialogues. Either it's on the radio, or on the tv, or here on the internet. Why should I give a flying **** about who the next person is ****ing? Grow a brain and some tolerance. At the very least, keep the stupidity to a minimum. I'm exhausted by it. Craven 07/21/07 11:16pm I did not mean to sound as if I was attacking his opinion. I was calmly asking him to back up his opinion. This seems to be a common response from many people, and another is the "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" argument. And yet noone is able to sufficiently back up these arguments. If people are following what the Bible says, then they are simply not thinking for themselves, and ASSUMING that this is a horrible act, based on the ASSUMPTION that God did not intend for this to happen. If God did not intend for this to happen, between cirtain individuls of like mind, then being the omnipotent One that he is, one would think this "Horrific" mistake would fail to elude his knowledge. Or maybe it was not necissarily MEANT to be this way, but rather, just shows that God intended Free-Will, in which case those that are badgering Gays and Lesbians, are breaking one of the very Tenets that Christianity so outwardly tries to promote; Love thy Neighbor. Jamie 07/21/07 6:12pm Love is love, the rights should be the same. Fran 07/21/07 4:34pm Bam Bam: "blow it out your ass"? Is that homoerotic tension that I sense from your direction? A freudian slip, perhaps? Listen, the bible is NOT the first word on humanity and how people should live, and it was written by men. Thus, why should it be my authority? I suggest that you educate yourself about the world more and realize that your view isn't the only one, and your gender/sexuality is NOT the ultimate norm. It is my understanding that "men" who do not see women as equals have identity and/or esteem issues which cause them to degrade others (makes you feel good, doesn't it Bam Bam?) By the way, women's issues are strongly connected to gay right's issues. They both relate to gender identity and individuals' rights... not that I expected you to understand that, Bam Bam. Lori 07/21/07 2:10pm Marriage is between a man and a woman, but I see no problem with civil unions. Same sex couples who are in devoted relationships deserve the same legal rights as anyone else, God will address the morality issue. Bree 07/21/07 12:13pm This issue is not a religous one, but it is one of equal rights for all. I do not see the government having a problem taking our money in taxes and such. Has anyone heard of taxation without representation? This is exactly what gay and lesbian americans face daily. I would love to get married, but that should be my decision not anyone elses. Alfred 07/21/07 11:24am When any poll is posted and comments are allowed then everyone is entitled to their opinion just like you are, you do not have to agree with it but I respect everyones opinion. Bam Bam 07/21/07 11:14am Craven don't you think Alfred is entitled to his opinion? Perhaps instead of asking him to prove his statement maybeyou should give some basis as to your beliefs or point of view instead of attacking him for his. Do you think marriage is for men and women only? Or do you separate the holy state and prefer legal unions? Jane 07/21/07 8:39am Lesbians Rule!!!! Craven 07/21/07 12:03am What makes this act "Vile and Perverted"? Is this an assumption that you have made, based on your perception of the issue? Or is this something you deem to know by FACT. Please, do tell me, in your words, WHY this act is as you say. If you so strongly beleive this, then there must be some basis for this conclusion. Annette 07/20/07 8:00pm A woman shall feel free about hertself Alfred 07/20/07 12:07pm Marriage should only be allowed between man and woman not between man and man/woman and woman. These people who have same sex marriages/relationships are ill as something has gone wrong with them somewhere. The act of homosexuality is vile and perverted. Bam Bam 07/20/07 6:54am P.S. Fran with all due respect blow it out your ass. This is NOT a womens libber Poll. God made woman for man so man would not be alone. Go read the Bible; nowhere does it state God made woman to be an agent of her own free will. I'm all for the womens movement, but, this is not the forum and how dare you shun Shari for her honest comment on the POLL AT HAND! Bam Bam 07/20/07 6:43am Wow this is such a loaded topic. Okay, I beleive that marriage in a CHURCH before God should be between man and woman. But, I also believe that people of the same sex should be allowed same sex unions; lest ye forget Marriage is a holy state. With that being said and I'm adding this next comment because I know that is going to cause a storm of comments. The Bible clearly says same sex relationships are forbidden, so if same sex partners get married in a church to me that makes it unrecognized by God and the act of it becomes pointless and not to mention Blasphemous to do that in HIS house. Which is why most churches won't allow it to begin with. Dutchy 07/20/07 5:03am Dear Beatrice, Society consists of all kinds of people, it makes it a colorful place with lots to learn, yes there should be lines drawn, maybe some people do not have such a great way with discerning what is truly right or wrong, but no lines that do not make sense at all. It does not make sense to me to forbid gay marriages. It seems to me you are speaking from a place of fear. Don't know what made you so fearful, but let me tell you from experience that gay couples are not different from heterosexual couples, they struglle with relationships, they try to make it work, they celebrate their love and they care just as much.. or as less.. couples consist of people. I do not understand your reasoning. I heard a funny joke a day or so ago in the movie Man of the year (with Robin Williams) .. about gay marriage.. Where Tom Dobbs, the character he plays, says: The president wants to pass an amendment banning same-sex marriage. Anybody who's been married knows it's always the same sex! That about sums it up for me, please think it over a bit with a little more relativity. Gay marriages can be just as harmful or as beautiful as straight ones. If you are speaking from a religious point of view, well there's no point in me trying to make you see it differently. For I do not think you are a homo-hater, there didnt speak any hatred from your post (yet). But if there's no religious reason to keep your stance so rigid, again I ask.. loosen up your mind a bit, try to explore in thinking and maybe watch some movies about it (I dunno .. Broke Back Mountain?, The Hours?) and discover what you do not see yet.. this is not dangerous territory.. it is just different and yet the same. Greetings, Dutch Craven 07/20/07 12:47am Indeed, Marriage has always stood for a man and woman. But times are changing. We do not live in an age where there is a big distinction between different races, nor should we, as this violates both human rights, and the very freedom of choice foundation on which our countries rely. The same should be said for Marriage as well. Many act as though these people have a choice of their sexual orientation. They do not. Should we deny them the same love and life commitment opportunities that are available to us? Love knows no boundries, least of all biased boundries of the flesh. Di 07/19/07 5:20am Marriage has always stood for a man and a woman. If gay people want to exercise their right to a commited union under the laws providing legal sanctions, they need to do it under a new name - not the word marriage as it does not apply. In my opinion it is as simple as that. Anita 07/19/07 4:51am I don't think society is always right. "I beg to dream and differ from the hollow lies". Andrea 07/19/07 1:45am Marriage should be between two people who truely love each other. now a days marriage has gotten to be something you do on a wim. Marriage should be the last step for the person you love in a commended relationship. life is to short to take it for granted. peace Zera 07/19/07 12:49am Hear hear craven. Craven 07/18/07 11:57pm Why should a person chastise another for his or her sexual orientation? Is it really anybody's business what goes on privately between two people? Marriage is, and should be, taken seriously, as it is a life commitment between two people. Marriage between the same sex isn't the 'Impossible' union many make it out to be. What really happens in a marriage? The government, nay, the world, knows person 'A' is committed to person 'B' for life. The papers are signed, the photos taken, the vows made. And they become inseperable. Does this have to stay between two people of the opposite sex? Should it be anybodys business, other than the ones marrying, if all this means is a life commitment between two people? why keep those that love each other, away from each other? If someone was to approach another, and tell the other that his choice of house color was not to HIS taste, should the other man care what he thinks? Its HIS house, he should be able to do what he will with it, not by the neighbors choice. Why should this be any different from Marriage? To tell another that they aren't allowed to commit themselves to another, is a crime in itself, and people who call themselves adults and act in this manner, should be ashamed of themselves. Fran 07/18/07 2:42pm Beatrice: you have fallen victim to illogical, fear-based histeria. You make a jump from comparing the marriage between two CONSENTING ADULTS who love eachother (albeit gay, but this does not matter as the former qualities put them on the same plane as a straight couple) to comparing a forced union of one person to a victim or weaker being. In my best charity to your argument, I imagine an extreme case where this hypothetical "wild" society "without rules" would allow a seven-year-old victim to marry his abuser: even IF the child "consented" to the marriage, he could not fully consent because he would not even know what he was getting into! Yes, it is a perverse scenario, and undoubtedly there are scores of gay people who agree (I know plenty)- just because one is attracted to someone of her own sex does not mean that she is attracted to anything that moves. Bottom line: get over your prejuidice that homosexuality is a sexual perversion. Get out of your hole and learn about the world around you. And for God's sake, come up with a respectable argument. Sativa 07/18/07 2:24pm I think sanctity of marriage,regardless of the sex of those in the union, is paramount for the children.If it weren't for the children I really don't see the sense of "marrying" anyway. Today what with power of attorney and living wills Beatrice 07/18/07 1:14pm Marriage should be allowed only between a man and a woman! It's Ok to try to understand and assimilate other points of view of others, and to accept that there may be some feelings between to beings of the same sex, but from there to MARRY... PEOPLE we have to stop being sooo condescending or this world it's doomed. There has to be rules to stick to and follow. THERE HAS TO BE A LINE DRAWN, that cannot be stepped over. We cannot just be like the water or the wind just going anywhere, or doing as we please just because "it feels good and right". THERE HAS TO BE RESPECT TOWARDS SOCIETY. At sometime in our lives we have to be confronted with the truth that EVERY ACTION HAS A CONSEQUENCE or what's going to be next? Sexual Predators allowed to wed their victims? just because it feels right? I know it sounds a little harsh, but little by little that's were we are going to get. WAKE UP PEOPLE ! Val 07/18/07 10:22am Everyone is right, bcuz everyone has the right to their own oppions. God did put us here to reproduce, but there are those that are married to the opposite sex that can't heve children. So they adopt. I just feel that as long as people love eachother and want to be with eachother for the rest of their lives should be able to get married. Being gay is not a crime just like being someone of a different color. We are all people with feelings and we are all supposed to be equal and share the same rights as any other. Deep down God loves us all no matter what we are. Being gay is not something one chooses but something they are born feeling. Mary 07/18/07 6:20am Good point Brittany!! There is something though: If God exists then she (was supposed to have) said Go forth and multiply? You can if you are Adam Eve, but not if you are Adam and Steve or Amanda and Neve. Each to his own...but I think the line between what is actually considered to be marriage has been distorted over the years. What is really considered marriage these days one wonders??? BRITTANY 07/18/07 2:42am Clearly marriage should be between two people who are in LOVE with one another!!!! And a person who knows that his/her partner is someone they want to spend the rest of their "HAPPILY MARRIED LIVES WITH!!! Mary 07/18/07 2:36am Saying God made man and woman in his own image sort of kicks Darwins theorem into touch doesnt it? The Bible was written to keep the masses under control and is perceived (by some not everyone) to have been written by 5 different people. If you want to keep people under control, preach hell fire and thunder and threaten God will smite ye down if you dont listen to him. Also, another good way to undermine women and keep them in control. Might have worked then, but not now. Jesus, bless him :) was also considered to have been a terrorist if you are prepared to read and believe and open your mind to the readings of the Knights Templar and other possibilities. He was considered not to the be the leader of the Jews, someone else was. The whole issue of the bible opens a huge can of worms and no doubt the devout christians amongst us would crucify me for my beliefs but hey, we are all entitled to an opinion, if you arent prepared to voice it, whats the point of having one? Continue to share people!!! MXX Zera 07/18/07 2:24am Have ANY of u ANY idea of how MANY times the bible has been rewritten, edited n changed ever since it´s 1st draft??? It´s change follows world history. So if u know a wee bit of world history on ancient empires you´d know, the bible s it stands today, aint the one made 1st time around. Food 4 thoughts no? zera Lovechild 07/17/07 1:18pm The bible was written by a bunch of patriarchal male chauvinist pigs who were trying to squash the goddess religion. name me one human that was ever born to a man? we came from WOMEN! god did not pluck us from some dude's rib. come on people at least look to reality for something. Fran 07/17/07 11:50am Allow me to deviate from the subject at hand to comment on a closely related topic... God made woman for man? I disagree entirely with your premise. Women are autonomous agents of our own free will, even if that will is to be domineered by someone else. Shame on you, Sheri, for implying otherwise- that we are "for" men. Claire 07/17/07 11:44am I agree perfectly. Sheri 07/17/07 8:09am God made woman for man. His intentions are perfectly clear.